2021 Fireside Chat with Alumni Award Recipients

well good evening everyone it’s wonderful to welcome you to tonight’s celebration i’m jean andrea the dean of the faculty of environment and um and i will be your host for today i’d like to extend a special welcome to this evening’s honorees as well as their nominators their supporters family friends and of course all of these students alumni retirees staff and faculty who are in attendance here with us i’d like to begin by publicly acknowledging the land that the university of waterloo is situated on the waterloo kitchener and cambridge campuses of our university are in the haldeman tract land that was promised to the six nations of the grand river land within the territory of the neutral anishinaabe and hodenoshani peoples our ability to work and live here now in waterloo region is tied to policies of expulsion assimilation and abuse of indigenous peoples during the time of settlement and confederation and since we have a responsibility to acknowledge and understand this history these truths and to have these ex inform our our work with first nations in way to metis peoples i’m a fifth generation canadian and my ancestors were farmers from southwest germany who benefited from land grants along the alora road in the mid 19th century as they opened up the county of bruce my grandparents and parents met some of the displaced indigenous people and often talked about how their gain and in turn mine and that of my children and grandchildren was at the expense of the indigenous peoples whose land we’re on we’re hosting the event today as a university committed to working collaboratively on and off campus to advance the truth the goals of the truth and reconciliation calls to action and to create a long-term vision for the university that is grounded in decolonization and i invite you all of course in your own lives to embark on that same journey well tonight we have the pleasure of recognizing five award honorees in three award categories one is a brilliant disaster management researcher with a passion for disseminating knowledge another an accomplished business person and true champion of waterloo who stepped up as the faculty’s first class champion the third an incredible leader in industry with an unwavering commitment to innovation integrity and strategic thinking who has a 50-year history of supporting our students also a world-class academic and trailblazer whose pioneering work in gender and social sustainability has transformed academia and a pioneer in ecological planning whose professional and philanthropic contributions have protected thousands of hectares of environmentally sensitive areas let me tell you a little about our alumni award program the program was introduced in 2008 with our distinguished alumni achievement award which was created to honor and recognize the accomplishments of some of our most successful and established alumni business leaders academic heavy hitters fearless public servants and civil leaders graduates who’ve distinguished themselves through their professional or academic achievements through their community service or their impacts on sustainability then in 2013 we added the young alumni inspiration award to recognize grads of the most recent decade who are already making a difference in their communities these passionate leaders shine on as an example and inspiration to our current students and also our young alum then our third award was established in 2019 the friend of the faculty impact award was created to recognize our partners and allies who support the faculty through volunteerism service and philanthropy they advance the mission of the faculty and the university and in so doing they contribute to the success of our students our programs our research and they heighten our impact well over the years we’ve had the privilege to recognize 30 honorees individuals and organizations whose accomplishments and dedication have made a difference in so many ways just three examples a nobel prize winning researcher on the impacts of climate change and water resources in wetlands and that’s linda marge through her work with the ipcc um juanjiko chiri who mobilized community participation in sustainable rural development projects in africa and a third example aaron stewart who has been building capacity for clean energy initiatives in indigenous communities throughout canada well this evening i have the pleasure of welcoming five new award recipients into this prestigious fellowship but before we get started i would like to encourage everyone to remember to share congratulations in the chat as people are introduced and we have a chance to get to know them a little through exchanges i hope you’ll share your good wishes in the chat near the end of the program we’ll have a chance to have some of your questions addressed and in that case i’ll ask you to put your questions in the q a so happy messages in the chat and questions in the q a okay here we go our first award this evening recognizes one of the first graduates of environment’s unique knowledge integration program a program that everybody wants to know more about even as an undergraduate student we knew this recipient dr eric kennedy had a very bright future for example he took fourth year seminars in his second year he served as a teaching assistant in the peace and conflict studies program and as a research assistant with a faculty member and he also provided leadership within the ki program through the student association after graduating eric went on to complete a masters and phd in human and social dimensions of science and technology at arizona state university where he conducted research on fisheries and wildlife managed wildfire management citizen science and climate change he produced an impressive publication record and he’s earned several fellowships there and several awards as well including the equinox fellowship with the waterloo global science initiative for which he was selected as a top 30 leader on global education while completing his phd eric was offered a tenure track position at york where he’s currently assistant professor in the disaster and emergency management program and director of a research group dedicated to improving how we prepare for respond to and manage emergencies eric’s research focuses on the intersection of emergency management and environmental issues particularly as it relates to wildfires recently much of his work has turned to the pandemic he’s led several initiatives tracking the social impacts of the coronavirus outbreak and advising governments he supported the public health agency of canada and other governments as well and emergency managers he’s provided critical data about how communities are affected and he leads an international working group coordinating the rapidly growing community of researchers contributing to this body of knowledge remarkably eric has continued to excel in scholarly roles while investing in society at large he’s founded the forum on science policy and society a not-for-profit organization dedicated to training the next generation of canadian policy leaders in science environmental and health policy through this organization eric runs a program called science outside the lab which fills a critical gap in linking exceptional graduate students young professionals um with public service um policy and and individuals so you can tell already eric is off to an amazing start in his career it sounds really like an entire lifetime of achievements already it’s it’s going to be amazing to watch with what you’re up to so please share your messages of congratulations in the chat we’ll get to know eric a little bit now with the video i’ve always been someone who enjoys being outdoors enjoys camping and canoeing and hiking and exploring um but i’ve also been really intrigued all throughout my life by environmental problems right how we protect the environment how we address climate change how we manage our natural resources um in in a better more accountable way there also though was uh the side on on emergency management too and so one of my first formative memories was my parents taking me to watch fire trucks at some fires around waterloo in particular at sea grounds when it burned down but there were other kinds of involvement as well so at waterloo i was the coordinator of the campus response team and involved in the campus response team all four years of my degree and that firsthand medical and emergency response and experience was was really formative what i realized was that i could bring together these environmental interests and these emergency response interests and combine them into looking at things like wildfire and forest fire as a really cool way to explore both sides of the issue and to integrate my passions on these diverse topics as a professor of emergency management there are a number of different roles that i have so i teach the next generation of emergency managers we have both undergraduate and graduate programs in disaster and emergency management i also do lots of research related to disasters and emergencies so i study how people make decisions in crises i really care about community engagement about working with decision makers and about um trying to make the world a little bit better for others and so um to me success looks like having this positive impact with our work if i could go back to the beginning of university i think i would encourage myself to push myself a little bit more in the courses that challenged me and that i was nervous about and because they may have been tough experiences at the time but i think they were a lot of what became useful down the road and shaped me into who i am today i think all of this advice comes back to the notion of embracing a really diverse set of experiences of trying things out of not being afraid to try something new and decide you don’t like it and try something else new um and i think that pattern of advice to embracing diverse experiences and to trying to make connections between them and being open to these intersections is what ultimately led me to the career that i really enjoy now and the opportunities that i have to give back that um i feel really fortunate thank you so much to the faculty of environment for this distinct honor as a recipient there are many folks i’d like to thank my parents my partner and the many staff and advisors and professors at waterloo really profoundly shaped my journey and as a professor of disaster and emergency management in this era of catastrophes i’d love nothing more than spend uh several minutes or longer talking about how we can build a safer more equitable and more compassionate society but what i really want to do tonight is to celebrate someone else from our environment community someone who profoundly shaped me for the better and transformed our faculty and our university last week we lost linda carson an incredible professor teacher and program designer after a battle with als not only was she a dear friend and mentor to us in environment but she was the driving force behind the knowledge integration program and an interdisciplinarian extraordinaire she had degrees from three faculties across campus when remembering incredible community members it’s a bit of a truism or a cliche to talk about how their legacy lives on but i think linda really exemplifies that she taught not just environment students but students from all across campus so many lessons about how to be creative how to generate trustworthy knowledge and how to collaborate effectively we students often talk about linda isms like her advice about thinking creatively she always encouraged us to uh in the pursuit of catching big fish ideas to catch a lot of fish and throw the little ones back she implored us to remember that there are fewer rules than you think and to separate out the divergent and convergent phases of critical thinking she taught us to reject dichotomies about the importance of metacognition and being self-aware and to be public in your praise for others given her incredible influence on all of us for the better here in environment and across the university i’d like to dedicate this award to her to her incredible legacy of inspiration and mentorship and to all of the teachers across the faculty of environment that care about and invest in their students like linda did so thank you that was um that was so so beautiful thank you for recognizing linda of course we’ve all been grieving her loss and as we became aware of it this week and uh that’s amazing that that you would uh dedicate your award to her in this way so so thank you maybe we have a few minutes maybe we could just um i could ask a few questions just so people can get to know you a little better i wonder if you could just tell us a little bit more about that science outside the lab um initiative tell us you know what kind of people you’re working with and and really what makes that um really something special like what are you trying to achieve yeah so this is an experiential education program that i co-founded to bring promising graduate students from across canada and around the world to ottawa and montreal and vancouver and victoria and the places where decision-making happens in canada um and my selfish goal in this was to create an experience like this to have an opportunity to build networks and make connections but it’s also about creating the next generation of talent for science policy leadership some of these students will go on to stay in academia but now have a richer sense of what their work can do and how it can influence decision making for others this is about finding the path right you’re in a master’s degree or a phd and you’re not sure you want to stick around this weird thing we call the university right we can we can share opportunities and pathways that exist in journalism and think tanks and the public service where you can use the skills that you pick up in graduate school and apply them to making the world a better place so it’s all about trying to foster those connections for the next generation of science policy leadership okay thank you maybe a bigger question it’s a bit harder like like a lot of people are talking about resilience and you can think about it in the personal sense i know that you often think about it in the societal sense like do you have are there things you can tell us that make us hopeful that we’re getting more resilient in in some ways um just a you know a few thoughts about the idea of societal resilience which i know is something you think about all the time absolutely look i gave a talk actually at conrad grebel last week and i talked about the improbable places that we can find hope we live in this era of catastrophe of cataclysmic fires followed by floods all wealth uh contagion is raging on um and to me the illustration of hope is found in a strip mall in winnipeg between a leon’s furniture warehouse and a hakeem optical there’s this little office with six people called the canadian interagency forest fire center and it is the glue that holds together our forest fire response across the country they are the bureaucrats and the administrators that figure out how we can send firefighters from ontario and quebec out to british columbia when they need help and how we’ll make this kind of collaboration sustainable and uh just and equitable over time and i think if there’s hope to be found amidst all this calamity it’s in community and collaboration and the sort of waterloo barn raising spirit is present in that strip mall as we figure out how to work together to fight these giant fires and to handle them in a more ecologically responsible way and i think that’s the only path forward as we face these kind of disasters is to figure out how to work together and how to build strong institutions thank you for that and you know thank you especially for mentioning the barn raising as as you know our former president and governor general used to uh used to talk about the barn raising mentality of waterloo region so it’s nice to have you reference that that as well um i know we’re going to get a chance to talk a little bit more with you at the end and we all gather together and so i just want to say again congratulations eric and thanks for for sharing some of your thoughts thanks so much okay next we transition to the friend of the faculty impact award and our first awardee in this category is anne-marie murray now very few people give up their time and their talent so freely with such conviction and compassion as anne-marie you only have to meet her once to know that she’s got that kind of energy and drive to make a difference so the value of volunteerism was instilled in emery from an early age and over the years she’s volunteered with many worthy organizations including the girl guides of canada so did i enrich just saying um the toronto pen and parapan american games ovarian cancer canada and futurepreneur canada all while launching leading an independent digital marketing firm which henry still runs the university however held a central place in her heart and anne-marie graduated from the school of planning in 1995 with a network of amazing friendships and um and um sort of memories and and that time that she spent with i know she talks about it as being formative and inspiring personal growth and um this has nourished her throat her life and since graduation anne-marie has been such an amazing champion for the university and for the faculty she stays in touch with her classmates and she’s brought them together for reunions but she’s even encouraged her friend’s children to attend the university of waterloo which is uh which is a testament to uh how much she believes in us which is very humbling anne-marie signed on as the faculty of environment’s first official class champion she mentors students through the emd connect the faculty’s online network networking net hub which some of you are aware of and she’s been a keynote speaker at several of waterloo events in 2019 she launched the faculty of environment’s first class fund through which she and her classmates raised more than twenty thousand dollars to establish the planning class of 1995 entrance scholarship and since then a number of other classes and class champions have followed in her footsteps establishing scholarships in their classes names in the same year the university of waterloo established an alumni chapter in toronto which is home to the university’s largest alumni base again ann marie put up her hand to become the inaugural co-lead of the toronto alumni chapter and for two years she worked tirelessly to lead a group of alumni volunteers now she stayed on since then as a leadership advisor to help the chapter continue to grow well 30 years ago anne-marie was a fresh-faced student beginning a new phase of her life that would shape the person she was to become and today she’s a leader within our same institution inspiring and supporting the next generation and i’m just thrilled to be able to recognize ann marie with the award uh today so please share your congratulations in the chat and we’ll get to know emery a little bit with a video and then we’ll get to hear from her live as well my parents they instilled in us the importance to help others but also like my mother was extremely involved in volunteering um right from you know being a classroom helper to being a girl guide leader and so you know it’s like i took i took lead from her to be able to you know sort of start volunteering myself i love meeting new people and spending time with people and and really helping them i volunteer at the toronto airport to help people you know with wayfinding and it’s just it’s so exciting giving somebody a really good first impression or last impression of being in toronto so my time at waterloo can be characterized by it just being the four best years of my entire life i’ve never had four years in a row that have been as great as the four years i spent at waterloo what really sort of stood out for me in those four years is that exchange to oxford brooks university was really special for me i different from my classmates i decided to stay for the entire summer it was a challenge to live and work in a different country to you know have that day-to-day and also just to open myself up to new experiences three words to describe and marry the student would be uh hard-working funny and tall i tell my pre-university self to be open to all the new experiences that are going to be you know put on my doorstep but also the importance of all the people that i’m just about to meet on this journey and that they’ll be with you for the next 30 plus years my friends and colleagues would describe me now as probably glue the glue that holds everybody together also they would describe me as hard-working still and just loving still tall yes my experience was so great from the four years from the education i received from the people i met from the instructors i had i want somebody else to have that experience i hope that people have this have at least one if not as many connections and friendships and memories of the faculty the program and the university as i do [Music] i just want to thank um thank the university and the faculty so much for this awesome award the friend of the friend of the faculty award i want to thank my good friends leanne o’mara and joe calavon who nominated me for the award um your friendship definitely contributed to how great my time was in the faculty and now over 30 years later when we’re still enjoying that friendship and so many memories from our uw uh and beyond um thank you to the team of the faculty dina miriam dean jean working with you over the years as a class champion and more has um and more has been much better because of all of you my time at waterloo specifically in the faculty helped shape who i am and i know that the skills that i gained at uw from inside the lecture halls to hours in the computer lab and again hours in the coffee shop definitely you know have made me who i am today um with the scholarship that we created i hope that the recipients each year can have the wonderful experiences that that i did and will continue to support the program the faculty the university after they graduate because it’s just it’s so important to give back i want to thank you again for the award and i’m really looking forward to what else i can do with the university and the wonderful team at the university in the coming years days hours months whatever we can do together thank you so much and thank you anne marie okay i have to ask you you described yourself and then you used tall maybe you should tell i’d like you to tell everyone what the name of your company is because i think that’s totally cool my company name is longlegs media yeah so i think that’s uh that’s great i think nobody forgets that one once you’ve introduced them once but you know my serious question is about about this this your secret to be able to balance all these things like like you know i can barely keep up with work i feel and and and sometimes i worry that you know even friendships almost seem like a luxury you know how do you manage to juggle everything and still find time to give not just a token amount of volunteerism but actual leadership in these things like how do you do it what’s your secret um i think for me it’s really about prioritizing what’s important um and yes work pays the bills and you know gives you some satisfaction and stuff but it’s the it’s the volunteering it’s the giving back it’s making somebody’s day happier or you know making it better um and then also like the you know my most important thing in my life is my friendships and my network and without those i wouldn’t i definitely wouldn’t be the person i am today and again most of those most of those true close friendships started you know probably in the computer lab at the faculty in uh environment too yeah you know it’s funny to talk about the computer labs different alumni have said that you know they would stay in the computer lab until until it smelled and then they would all go home for a shower so i’m not gonna ask you whether you stayed stayed that long but uh but i do know what you mean of course today people are working digitally so their experiences might have to be a slightly different sort of set but uh but yeah thanks for sharing that memory with us um okay so you know what we’re gonna connect with you again a little bit at the end as as um as we bring everybody back but you know a warm a warm congratulations but really a heartfelt thank you for everything you do for us it’s amazing thank you okay now i would like to introduce you to our second friend of the faculty impact award recipient it’s a rare friendship that lasts nearly 50 years and i’m so pleased that mhbc planning urban design and landscape architecture is being recognized for their tremendous support that they’ve provided the university and the faculty and the school of planning over all this time with us tonight is brian zayman president of mhbc an alum of the faculty and so let me tell you a little about the firm so the firm itself was was founded in 1973 by alumnus ian mcnaughton who was part of the first class of the undergraduate planners in this country and also he’s a recipient of the alumni achievement award with us in 2013.Now today the company has grown to be one of the largest and most respected planning firms in ontario with six offices and a team of more than 100 over the years mhbc has employed literally hundreds of co-op students giving them the valuable opportunity to apply what they’ve learned in the classroom to real world settings and they’ve also hired countless alumni in fact seventy percent of the partners at mhbc are waterloo grads mhbc staff have kept the connection to waterloo strong by sitting on committees by providing guest lectures that bring the application of industry knowledge to the classroom by sponsoring students to attend the legendary university of waterloo planning alumni of toronto upat gala dinner which some of us have had the pleasure of also going to and by mentoring students at leadership events and through envy connect mhbc staff have served as planners in residence and as pregnant council members providing students with networking and insights into how things really work this past year mhbc created the flagship award for black and indigenous students to help make planning education more accessible and the planning profession more equitable and diverse led by eldon theodore and supported unanimously across the company the initiative has already impacted the life of one of our bright brightest students in the school of planning it is of course difficult to do justice to the impact of the mhpc’s support their involvement waterloo as i said has spanned five decades and continues to branch out but for so for all of their many contributions we are just delighted to recognize this amazing firm this evening with our faculty impact award so congratulations well again i ask you to put your congratulations in the chat and we’ll have a chance to see a video and to meet brian university of waterloo is the pipeline provides the the blood and the veins of mhbc i wasn’t a particularly good student in the sciences in the mass geography i just loved waterloo had a good program and they welcomed me on the football team so it was a natural my time at the university of waterloo were some of my fondest memories the four years at the university is where i forged my greatest memories and my greatest friendships that continue to exist today when the company was started i was fortunate to be the first graduates in this field in undergraduate planning in the country mhbc provides planning urban design cultural heritage landscape architect services to both the private and public sector what that really means is we help design the communities that we live in and ultimately help to protect and utilize the resources of meaning to build and feed our communities in a responsible and sustainable way i think the success that i’ve enjoyed mhbc has enjoyed is we combined both fundamentals of business with professionalism put those two things together and we had success the mhbc award for black and indigenous students uh started as a result of the social movement in 2020 it started a discussion within our our company itself and i you know coming up for a white background growing up in oakville it opened me up to discussions and dialogue with other colleagues other people that did come up from different upbringings different ethnic backgrounds and it really taught me a lot of different perspectives and different challenges the success of mhbc i have a lot to owe to ian mcdonald the founder of the company it’s the guiding principles that he established back in 1973 that continue to guide the way we continue to run our company today we’ve always challenged each other from day one he he allowed me to challenge his thought process i learned as a young planner that i was he allowed that challenge but i learned very early in my career i was seldom right at the beginning and he had taught me a lot but allowed me to have that perspective and have that that that dialogue and debate and ultimately i think we’ve learned from each other over the years and we were certainly able to better serve our clients as a team when we work together closely i owe waterloo a tremendous amount gave me a career and ultimately gave me a business thank you best piece of advice was from my wife she said i want you to go out and start your own company i’ve got faith in you you can do it take the risk and do it now but it turned out her advice was the best advice i’ve ever received to describe ian i would describe ian as brilliant determined let me just give me a second i’m just gonna i want to think this through i’m happy with that the mhbc has been given a lot and has a responsibility to give back and i’m really proud to see that the tradition is is carrying on gene thank you very much that was a very kind introduction and i really appreciate the video documenting a little bit of the history of our company uh first off on behalf of the partners at mhbc uh this is a very uh incredible honor we are honored to be the first company to receive this award and we will i will ensure that this uh this award is displayed proudly at our company it’s a constant reminder of the importance of the partnership that we have with the university and the connection that we have not only to the faculty but also to the students and as it’s been mentioned it’s been a 50-year journey and one that we’ve really enjoyed for me personally uh it’s really special to be recognized from the university where i went to school and got my training from i’m a graduate in 1998 and it’s just been a real to come back 20 years later and still have that connection with the school being have that opportunity to work with students and have students that can continue to come through our program it’s just it’s it’s i can’t say how much of an honor this is to our company tonight and i’d just like to thank the university of waterloo uh for this recognition so thank you thanks for your for your remarks brian um we can maybe chat for a few minutes you know like i’m really inspired by the black and indigenous um scholarships that you’ve created and um you know that’s the mhbc award um in this way is one of the uh was one of the first really um for this and i think you know the whole country is waking up to the need for more focus on on diversity inclusion anti-racism but i’m i’m wondering like from a plan as a planning professional you know um can you can you say a little bit more about about why um equity diversity inclusion is so important today i think thank you gene i think it’s the diversity equity inclusion when you really look back to it it’s the foundation of canada it’s the foundation of ontario it’s our strength uh we have so many different perspectives uh different initiatives immigration and it’s really formed the foundation of of canada and ontario and just being able you don’t have to turn on the news uh just turning on the news you you quickly uh we’ve become very aware of the last couple years of some of the injustices that have happened to uh different uh different communities within canada and different immigration and this was just a small area that we thought we could try to make a difference and any way that we can to help given opportunities to an area of injustice where we can provide some assistance uh to help with that education i was delighted to hear the uh the first awards been received and uh it’s just it is really just brings chills to you that it’s it’s just such an honor to see this opportunity being presented to others you know my opportunity the university has provided me and my family a great opportunity and anywhere that we can assist to provide others is just a it’s a true honor and something that we’ve really really enjoyed with the university over the past 50 years and how we just want to continue as a company to partner partner with the school uh for these future opportunities well well thank you and and let me just tell you it’s it’s not just the individual students that you’re affecting like you’re actually setting an example for the whole campus and for our whole alumni community so um that that act which might seem singular is actually um having an entire cascade effect which is amazing so here’s a question i’m going to ask you keep hiring university of waterloo uh students and alums so is there something special about them or are you just just just love your allegiance to the school i’m just i’m just curious absolutely there’s that special it’s uh we we have uh about 75 of our partners our university of waterloo grads um i can tell you from all of the co-op students that we’ve had um join our company for various co-op terms and and many co-op students have continued on with our company but the students they’re they’re fun they’re hard-working they’re bright they’re innovative and they’re creative and it’s it’s a really the co-op program i found has been a two-way street for us it’s uh we get to learn just as much from them as they get to learn from us it’s you know they come to uh the education that they’re getting at the university of waterloo is teaching them different ways of innovative ways for sustainability and solutions and their leading edge in terms of the front end in terms of science and research so these are all things that you know getting these young bright students to come in and help shape and help teach us too is just it’s an incredible two-way street so we’ve really enjoyed uh working with the students of university and we’ve also had the opportunity to come in and do some guest lecture and so you know it’s i love working with the faculty and stuff but our real true passion is uh just being able to roll our sleeves back up with the students and and sharing some of these stories and ideas so it’s it’s it’s been a true honor and one that uh i can tell you we have our commitment we will continue going forward in the future and i just saw that the job postings coming up for the new co-op terms and we’re we’re getting all our offices ready there gene stinging so uh we really yeah it’s beautiful uh i love it brian thank you thank you so much and thanks for your commitment uh to the institution and to our students um we’ll we’ll chat again with you at the end as we bring everybody back and uh again just warm congratulations and thanks for for all everything you’re doing thank you okay our next recognition is for the distinguished alumni achievement award and it gives me immense pleasure to introduce a fellow geographer who i have known for more than 30 years having gotten to know her while she was doing her phd with dr bruce mitchell at waterloo the awardee is dr maureen reed a distinguished professor at the university of saskatchewan who serves as an assistant director academic in the school of environment and sustainability a school that she was instrumental in creating a world-class researcher and prolific scholar maureen has made exceptional contributions to the understanding of many of the social dimensions of sustainability by addressing the critical and often overlooked interconnections amongst gender politics and environmental governance maureen was looking at intersectionality before most of the rest of us knew what the word meant she’s led path-breaking research on gender and forestry in the global north distinguishing herself as a leading expert in this area she was one of the first researchers to incorporate feminist theory and gender-based analysis into sustainability science and her award-winning book taking stands has opened important conversations around women’s activism in environmental and community protection inspiring researchers around the world marine is also a leading expert in multi-level governance for conservation particularly in biosphere reserves she holds the prestigious unesco chair in biocultural diversity sustainability reconciliation and renewal and she leads a research lab exploring models of governance and actions to help communities become resilient and make progress toward environmental and social sustainability as one of the few social scientists conducting research with biosphere reserves maureen’s leadership and contribution toward mobilizing knowledge has shaped the way that biosphere reserve practitioners worldwide work together and it’s amplified the impact that their work has a prolific academic marine has edited or written 12 books authored or co-authored more than 150 peer-reviewed chapters in journal articles and supervised more than 125 graduate students lucky them through her scholarship partnerships projects and leadership maureen’s work has brought reaching impact supporting and informing policy building a community of practice amongst practitioners training the next gen of change agents and most importantly supporting the communities that are most affected by her findings please share your congratulations in the chat while we get to know maureen a little bit better through the video [Music] both the value and the privilege of an education was instilled in me early on my great-grandmother stood on the corner selling eggs so that her daughter my grandmother could go to school family certainly instilled a sense of how privileged i am and how privileged we are in canada and a sense of service that with that privilege we have things that we need to provide to others i focus on the social dimensions of sustainability and in short what that means to me is really looking at people processes and institutions and see how these shape how we make decisions about environment and development so i try to explain how gender and other social factors such as age socioeconomic status indigeneity how these things come together to privilege some groups and frankly exclude other groups from the really important decisions about our environment about sustainability and increasingly about climate change adaptation one of the things that i’m really pleased about is the way in which some of the work that i’ve done around gender and diversity is now being taken up in public policy and what i’ve come to realize is that we share common interests that these kinds of issues need to be addressed by bringing the natural the social and the health sciences together i’m going to pass on a piece of advice that my sister gave me before i started high school and she said to me maureen get involved don’t wait so for those of us in environment and sustainability there’s no better advice the planet needs you people need you and the rewards are enormous [Music] so thank you so much and i realize it’s my turn to say how much i appreciate this particular award and given the um the work that i’ve done in forestry it’s so lovely to have a beautiful um piece of carved wood that will be able i’ll be able to kind of remember this day and this honor that you’ve bestowed on me today it’s also just truly amazing to be part of this group this particular cohort but also the larger group of you of waterloo alumni who are just doing amazing amazing things so thank you so much for the honor to be included amongst you um it’s also a little bit um embarrassing i think to be singled out because i think as so many of the people have already said we don’t work alone and so i’d like to say thank you to the nominees thank you to my students and colleagues and thank you to some amazing community research partners i also have been mentored through my early years in particular and i’m going to call out bruce mitchell olabs laymaker and last lab college who were very important in my formative years and continue to inspire me i also want to say thank you to my family members both my formative family of whom you’ve seen some snapshots and heard some stories already but also my family here in saskatoon my lifetime partner and husband bruce wood my children louis and michael and various assorted four-legged members who come in and out of our our house every day but of course i also want to be grateful for the tremendous friendships for with those with whom i studied so when i started my phd i thought it was critically important to have a great supervisor and i was right and i had a great supervisor but what i really didn’t appreciate at the time was the importance of community that would build that i would be able to start to build at the university and i want to thank the university of waterloo and in particular the faculty of environment for creating a space for me to to really flourish as part of a community as part of a person and an emerging academic and so i’m sort of hoping that in a very small way i can replicate that for students staff and faculty at the university of saskatchewan where i now work so thank you so much for that sense of community and for the honor that you have bestowed today oh you’re welcome and thank you for um for being such an amazing alum and for sharing yourself with us um maybe a few questions i want i want to start with um uh the talk that i remember you giving at the canadian association of geographers in 2006.I think it was the suzanne mckenzie memorial lecture and i remember you were talking about the intersection of forestry and gender and and um and i’m just i’m just curious how you came to put those two pieces together yeah well i grew up in vancouver where public debates in forestry have really been going on for as long as i can remember and then in 1993 i was at ubc and what was then called the war in the woods sparked the largest act of civil disobedience in canadian history and plaque sound which is on the west coast of vancouver island really became the site of what mainstream media at the time called an eco-feminist peace camp and and yet it was really far from peaceful at that time and women who in other times would have been quite valorized for literally standing up beside working class men were vilified for the role they took in trying to protect jobs and trying to protect so-called industrial forestry and i thought there’s got to be a better way right that we’ve got to learn more about them and learn how can we move beyond thinking between you know us and them all the time and how can we start to think about sustainability from the perspectives of people who are not the same as us who have different perspectives and different positions in relation to these debates and so i really i saw that i guess as an opportunity but also a bit as a calling i guess nice nice and maybe you can tell us a little bit about biosphere reserves i mean i guess the real question i want to know is about how do you make successful partnerships with such a diverse stakeholder group but but for the audience i’m curious to how many biosphere reserves in the world have you been to like and maybe tell us just a little bit about that program um well i couldn’t tell you how many i’ve been to i haven’t been to all of them in canada they’re 19 in canada and over 700 around the world in 130 one or two countries i think and so um what i would say is they do tremendous work and i’m always awed by the amount of work that they do a lot of them doing that as volunteers particularly in canada and so in building partnerships with them and with others i think there are about three things i would suggest and one the first one is to start to listen you know as academics we often are the ones that start the talking or start the conversation but um as the saying goes you know we have two ears and one mouth and that we should start to use them in proportion so listening is a good strategy but it also takes a lot of elbow grease and i think other people have already referred to this that it’s a lot of work it’s worked both for them as well as for those of us in academia and uh my dad used to tease me about becoming an academic so that i could uh be off in my garrett in paris just writing big thoughts right and that’s just not true right academics can’t be hiding out in addicts and pretending that they’re doing anything and we have to learn to get dirty to listen and then to put the work in and i think the last thing is really to find joy in it um what biosphere regions people in biosphere regions are doing is so tremendous um and they are working so hard and so i think it’s we need to find ways to celebrate and to really love what we do together it’s uh it’s wise words and uh finding joy in what we do has been especially hard i think in covet for a lot of people but uh but it is the key to being sustained in the long run so yeah thank you for those wise words so again we’ll have you back when the when the group gathers together so congratulations again maureen okay our fifth award tonight is our second distinguished alumni achievement award and it’s um this is is going to um to derek coleman um who’s been a purpose-driven trailblazer throughout his career he was one of the first phd students in planning at the university studying under the late dr bob dorney who himself was a pioneer as an ecologist in the school of planning now based on his unique education dr coleman established one of the first environmental consulting firms in ontario dedicated to environmental research and analysis and of course the importance of that has just grown and grown over the course of his impressive and prolific 50-year career he has completed more than a thousand projects in seven provinces and he has appeared as an expert witness before tribunals on more than 200 occasions derek’s work was foundational to establishing programs and systems that protect thousands of hectares of significant lands in southern ontario he was also a charter member of the first ecological and environmental advisory committee in the province and he was deeply involved in related activities in waterloo region derek is also a philanthropist and a champion of his community he established a charitable foundation through which he has developed and sponsored many creative initiatives supporting education research and environmental causes a few examples at the rare charitable reserve in cambridge he sponsors an annual scholarship and bursary program to support students in early career research projects as a board member on the canadian institute of planners student trust fund he initiated and continues to support travel awards for students giving them the opportunity to attend the national planning conference in the third example he is a benefactor of the cambridge stewardship initiative through which he has sponsored more than a hundred tree plantings and education programs for both elementary and high schools now given his many contributions to the local region you won’t be surprised that he’s been recognized by others for example he was recognized by the um for his contributions to the cambridge and grand river area by the grand river conservation authority now before before we hear from derek well let’s watch a short video and learn a little bit more about his many contributions and then get to know him a little bit as he chats with us [Music] well my career which has been varied over time there are many many things that i’ve achieved that give me a great deal of satisfaction protecting thousand acres of environmentally significant features getting major projects through approval process with public consultation and for my early years i always had a strong interest in the outdoors my my father was a real hunter and fisherman and i grew up under his tutelage but my mother was also a very strong influence in my life the major thing for my time at waterloo is that len gertler the first director of the school he and i were able to secure a major grant that allowed me to hire students and undertake substantial development work for a computer data bank that served served well for a number of years as a teaching tool afterwards my professional career i established one of the first environmental ecological consulting firms in the province and i’ve worked in that role for the last well 50 years now the community is of cambridge in this case is our larger family and the satisfaction i get from seeing things develop here in the right way and i’ve assisted the planners in developing the policies for their planning documents and also providing funding for a variety of projects particularly something called rare which is a major ecological reserve 400 acres in cambridge where i support four or five student research projects every year and it’s a great deal of satisfaction in seeing the young people come along and get their hands dirty in the field and have to report back to me on their successes over the years i’ve i’ve you know neck broadly and developed partnerships that suited the circumstances at the time and moved from location to location or role to roll that i would say younger self maintain the flexibility and maintain your contacts and things just will happen in the right way [Music] i’d like to really thank thank the faculty and the university for for this award um being the last in the line here certainly has major advantages and i’m both humbled by the extent of the uh what the people before me have achieved i i’m just in awe and but i’m also encouraged that uh the university and the faculty is continuing to produce such strong candidates for awards uh such of this it’s certainly i’m impressed by the broad range of activities and and and locations i i’d like to to just you know we’re on schedule and i’ll just digress a little bit because i’m an old ceo senile guy but if you see what this is in 1969 when i i came to the school to use a computer you had to go up to the computer building at in the northern end of campus and the computer was in what was the size of a swimming pool with filled with equipment and god down there saying i sat at a little desk and ran the whole thing and you punched in your information on cards that you fed into a reader um we’ve progressed so far that that entire swimming pool now fits in a little capsule like like this that i can that i can plug in and works much better and much easier and i don’t have to go to the north end of the campus but when i arrived in in 1969 the school was in a similar state it it was just progressing out of the department of geography school of planning urban regional and resource planning was into his first year and just taking in the first graduate students there were perhaps 10 or 15 grad students in the program when i started out three of us in the phd program and now we’re we’re at what faculty with 3 000 students and 100 faculty members it’s just been a phenomenal similar growth and also the quality of the uh the quality of the the work that’s being done which depends so much as mine did on the faculty that were there i was just blessed to be one of bob dorney’s well i was bob darney’s first student as a phd and len gertner who was the first director of the school arranged for that major grant that just got my career launched into ecological planning and [Music] from the basis at the university things just have developed and i’m so grateful for the foundation that i i received then so thank you thank you gene and i hope i haven’t thrown you off schedule no no and in fact being reminded about the uh the swimming suits swimming pool size computer room i remember when i was a high school student in the early 70s they came down to waterloo and other universities toured to decide where to study i didn’t choose waterloo in part because i found that computer building so it’s intimidating and it’s uh it’s funny looking looking back now but but um but you know you were kind of like you were a pioneer you were getting into a field that was brand new and i just wonder i guess two things how has that field of sort of environmental planning changed and and what has sort of sustained your interest for this for the duration of your career well certainly certainly the field has changed i mean when when i started planning in the province was rudimentary i mean we didn’t have regional governments waterloo region came along and you know we got a regional official plan and environmental policies have just developed to be very comprehensive and required required nowadays as have environmental assessments which were brand new you know back then and they have they have uh emerged as as well uh you know i like i i i’ll slip in another little story the reason i came to waterloo was that i had an aunt in guelph who belonged to a garden club and this professor came over and talked to uh her garden club and she so impressed the members of the garden club that she said i should go over and meet with this guy bob dorney and and i did and and lynn and um the time that faculty has taken to do things like that go and talk to carter garden clubs and to nurture students is has created what has grown now into a fully developed burgeoning field i think is as you called a gene yeah and it’s it’s it’s amazing often how those little serendipitous moments uh sort of make a difference to people and and you know speaking of that you’ve been a real committed philanthropist you know and i wonder there are lots of folks who you know you know we write our check maybe at the holiday season in order to support a charity but like you’ve rolled up your sleeves and gotten involved i wonder do you have any um advice for would-be philanthropists or or people who want to maybe lead around causes that they that they hold in their heart certainly i i should perhaps explain one of the major reasons and that is uh my wife and i were not blessed with children so um our family is more the community is more of the focus of us and and our our family and the community that we live in is is is cambridge and so i’ve now for 20 odd years support looked for and found and supported various activities and programs and there are a number of things that i look for and and one i’m very much a hands-on guy and i i actually get out and plant trees with the grantees grant recipients um and i i like specific activities that i can see results for and go go back and visit i mean i’m very fortunate with the type of field that i’m in to be able to do that rather than just handing off dollars and you never hear anything again you know i i want to hear back and i want to meet and see the people who are involved and i i also look for continuing progre projects that are a program over time and not uh once once a year and it’s gone kind of event so it’s it’s created creative for us uh just a you know a fantastic side to our life as i move out of environmental consulting which i’m i’m doing now and it will provide us with satisfaction for a much longer time so the philanthropy is actually a very self-serving event very self-serving side of our life because i i enjoy it and i’ll be continuing it for quite a period of time and i encourage others to do what uh find their own niche and uh and do the same kind of thing well i think that’s it’s wonderful and it’s i i you know i you know i i think it’s humble of you to say it’s self-serving because it really gives so much to others as well which is amazing you know at this time i want to invite back in all of our um award recipients and uh this is a time where for those of you in the audience you could maybe click on the q a button and you could uh maybe direct a question to one or several of our of our award winners so we’ve got brian and maureen and marie we’re waiting for eric to come in there’s eric as well fantastic okay great um good so um so i’ve got a couple questions i guess to to to start it off but but one of them i guess i want to i wanted to ask about courage um you know each of you is a pioneer in your own way you’ve you’ve tackled something that um you maybe didn’t know how to do um you made it happen um for some of you you defined a new field and i just i’m just wondering if um you know where did you find the courage to explore these things or when you when you were lacking courage um sort of what what uh reinvigorated you to to sort of con continue so i don’t know who would like to maybe start i’ve got a few smiles on the screen so okay we’ve got derek ready to start okay go ahead please i i sure i’d provide a comment i mean i’ve actually reinvented my consulting career three times in my in my life moving from different organizations into different different situations and um you know sometimes things just don’t work out and it’s time to say sayonara and move on and take that chance and that risk and and it you know things turn out well uh whatever okay all right good i’m just looking to see who’s got their like who’s most poised maureen you leaned in so i guess that makes you up next um for me it’s probably family you know if you you know that people will support you and care about you regardless it kind of gives you a bit of inspiration to dip your toe in a different water and uh you know my um my husband bruce once said you know you have one life you know live it to the best you can and try it and so i think that’s um that’s really good advice i think it’s very good advice um brian what if any any comment on this one i’d have to be very thankful to ian mcnaughton the founder of our firm for courage i think the one thing i remember from the day i started with the company was just him telling me believe in yourself and and i think that’s a lot of what he did to found mhbc and he’s really instilled in me that importance to get back to community get back to the school because they’re the they’re the foundation for our institutes for our our next generations in learning and stuff so it’s really a very thankful for ian for pushing me just to believe in myself and my career and then from there you got to take a little bit of accountability and responsibility yourself and uh and every day is not easy but it’s uh it really is a rewarding and fulfilling career you know i want to say a special thank you to ian too i don’t know some of you may have known that on giving tuesday um we were launching a new scholarship um and ian put up um the the the money that would be the match in order to encourage donations and so you know i’m just really grateful to to ian and many fronts but that’s sort of the latest example which is really quite incredible um what about the knowledge integration mantras there is uh failure leads to success and another linda ism is about uh good things coming to those who work at things um and i i took a lot from the knowledge integration approach of trying things out and trying diverse experiences and not taking one failure or setback as permanent um but as a learning experience and an opportunity to pivot and try something new i think there’s often a lot of pressure on people to get things right the first time and to figure out what your career will be from day one of of first year university um but i have changed and pivoted a lot and i think that that is a productive path forward nice nice and anne-marie um i think for me i sort of go with the idea that to you know try to do things that scare you um because if you do things that are simple and that you know how to do you’re never gonna grow or learn so you know even if it’s something like public speaking or you know or going up and networking and meeting somebody new you know like it is a scary thing and uh but you just never know where it’s gonna get you so i try to do as much of that as i can you know you’re you’re a girl after my own heart you know this is a personal story but a number of years ago about 12 years ago my dad died and my dad was one of the most likable people you’d ever met ever meet but he he never really um left the small village that i grew up in and and um and he always had a reticence and when he died i promised myself i would try something new every month that i didn’t want to do so i won’t show you the book where i wrote them down but but you are a woman after after my own heart i think trying to do those things that scare you you know as long as they’re not too stupid it’s actually a good way a good way to live all right here’s a question you don’t know is coming because um uh this is a fun one for me to ask but but what do you think the faculty or the university of waterloo or just universities in general should do better or differently here’s some advice you can you can give all right you can you can start admiring since you’re still on my screen um what can they do differently um i think that i’ve seen i’ve seen our university our faculty change over the years especially but i think it’s it’s very much it’s the it’s it’s the one-on-one connections it’s the being you know i think that we are very lucky in our faculty but um you know making those connections with the students right from the beginning being open being available and i think that you know again it’s hard to it’s hard to fault our faculty i think in any way because you know i was i was in your i think second year of teaching statistics class um and uh and still to this day i think that you know any of us will remember that class and just remember how accessible you were and things like that and i think that that’s the one of the most important things is that it can’t just be about you know professors that are up here and and students that are down here it needs to be that connection and i think that’s why the university and the faculty have stayed with me because of those connections i was able to make but i do think that that’s super important um for students thank you that’s a it’s an important important message especially these times anybody else dare to tell us what we’re not doing well enough that we should step up a little more eric you’re smiling go ahead and then then brian after that okay brian oh yeah you’re on my screen go ahead yeah do you want me to go first oh go for it brian okay um gene i’d like to just say i think the most important thing i would say from the schooling perspective is to from the universities taking theory to practice and i really want to compliment the university on this because i know there’s been a real initiative with the faculty of uh bringing in more practitioners bringing in more real life examples working through case studies um you know and i think that’s very important for the students to roll up their sleeves and actually work on real live projects that are going on in the communities now because it gives you that that first-hand experience of the policies the documents the challenges that we face in our profession so i want to applaud the school because i’ve seen a big tremendous improvement there and i just encourage uh the faculty to continue in that vein because i think it’s the most valuable experience that students can have uh coming out to start their careers so um congrats to the university for uh starting to really being a leader in this area and uh it’s one of the things that i wish i had a little i’ll be honest i wish i would have had a little bit more during my tenure at the school but i’ve i’ve known that it’s just tremendous improvements and the students really enjoy it so sage advice thank you and of course a lot of our alumni are the people who are allowing us to bring that back in which is great okay eric you’re up next it it’s dangerous to ask a millennial professor what they don’t want the universe i know i i thought of that so so let me creatively dodge the question here which is to just reflect for a second on the ways that universities are different as institutions right we we live in this privileged space and this privileged opportunity where we get to work with and mentor students and and create knowledge that can help shape real world problems and i think waterloo and environment are there and pushing the right way but i think we can also do things differently than the currents of society and i i think two things in the contemporary moment one is to fight for the value of in-person relationships i mean i’m a professor of emergency management right i do not underestimate for a moment kovid and its disastrous impacts um but there is value in in-person relationships when we can build those in safe ways and i think uh universities holding true to that will be really important playing with cadence is another the world demands productivity and results and speed and efficiency and i think a lot of the educational journey is about slowing things down and taking time and reflecting um and so i i would challenge us to think differently than the currents and the pressures of the sort of neoliberal uh capitalistic kinds of models in society and challenge us to hold that space where we create a different place for people to grow and change okay that’s fantastic okay maybe derek yeah let me just get unmuted here for a second i will be even more creative and frank i don’t think you’re doing anything wrong well you’re the only one i’m not gonna drag it out to try and tell you something that i don’t know anything about so keep it up as far as i can see you’re thank you marie do you have anything to add um well it’s just a general comment not specific to waterloo but um kind of underscoring what’s already been said i think really listening and connecting to the outside world and building connection in a sense over critique or maybe to inform critique and to inform those kinds of reflections i agree with eric and others who have talked about connecting but also about the kind of privilege space we have to reflect but i also think that we need to ground that in our connections with others you know understanding what are the needs knowledges and interests of people who don’t share the same privileges that we have it’s an important message there’s there’s there’s no doubt about it um i’m not sure if other i just want to remind folks that if you want to put a question in the question and answer or in the uh in the chat that’s uh i am i am monitoring um let me sort of you know that we’ve talked a little bit about covet and we’ve sort of danced around it but here we are virtually you know for two years in a row you know um giving each other virtual hugs and stuff and and i’m i’m just wondering you know a reflection it can be a reflection on how you think society has changed and won’t come back and maybe on a personal front um what you’re most looking forward to once this coveted scare and and and you know tragedy is behind us so you know either either either or maureen since you’re on screen now why don’t you just stay and you got anything to share there well i’d love to get beyond the virtual hug [Laughter] but really making those connections fair enough anybody else on the post covered world what’s going to change you think in the in the world it’s not that’s not going to snap back people keep talking about a new normal and i’m just wondering you know it could be a new normal in your own personal life but but people are talking about it in terms of big societal trends i don’t know if any of you have thoughts i think about this quite a lot and you know i don’t have a crystal ball or at least if i do it’s more like a snow globe it looks a little fuzzy but um anybody comment about the future i don’t have a comment about the future but i’ll comment about what the experience of covid has been i think that one of the and i’ve said this since the beginning one of the greatest things that has come out of kovid i think is the sense of community i know for myself as a single person who works for herself you know who’s like constantly you know by herself um it was it was very challenging especially when i couldn’t connect with like physically connect with my family so my community changed tremendously because for me i’m very lucky i lived near the lake in toronto so you know the only way to get out was to go out for walks every day and it was those people who i didn’t know who i’ve connected with like fairly deeply now and the fact that you know we’ve for two years now we’ve been like the closest people the long longest conversations the you know the sharing of recipes the sharing of comments uh the sharing of experiences um or just like taking in a sunrise together um it’s i think that that’s what’s really changed for me my community is so interesting it’s the the guys i see hanging outside the tim hortons which i you know have no idea what their names are but i say good morning to them every day you know they’re i’ve changed my community has changed tremendously just from this you know not that it’s like something i want it to happen because you know kobe just made it happen but luckily like i’ve got this whole new community that i wouldn’t have had you know if i was just going to work and get in the subway every day yeah and marie i wonder if if we’ve ever walked past each other on those coved era waterfront walks in toronto probably yeah the saving grace is like just being able to connect with people that way even if it’s just a good morning or a hello or oh it’s cold out oh it’s warm out oh it’s too rainy out you know just that typical canadian conversation we love the weather eric did you want to add a little bit a little bit more yeah i mean one of the joys of of moving from student hood to professor hood is having a chance to collaborate so um i mean dr john mccleevey and myself and some others have a book coming out soon about the importance of face-to-face connections in producing reliable knowledge and so i think that’s going to be huge is the the role of in-person connections in trust building um but if i can also just sort of pick up on on something i hinted at briefly earlier um i think we’ve we’ve seen an era of real loss of faith in institutions and experts um and i think that figuring out how we navigate that going forward is going to be really critical as well um what is the role for institutions in society and how do we build capacity for non-partisan service and make sure that we protect those kinds of of public service institutions because we will depend on their response again and a lot of really scary things have happened to sort of collective trust in these these critical institutions okay yeah you’re right thank you yeah thank you for that anybody yeah i was just going to comment on just echoing on what the other award recipients have said is really looking forward to the collaboration coming back um one thing when you’re running a company and you’re trying to hire new students and stuff that the best thing we can do we’ve had to reinvent ourselves in terms of how we onboard how we mentor how we make sure that a new student coming in to start their career is not feeling isolated and alone in an office and unsure so it’s we’ve had to and i really miss the people connection and sitting in a boardroom rolling up our sleeves putting a plan on the table and you know we’ve i’ve always learned through my career that more thoughts create a better product and just getting back to that collaboration would just uh i’m really looking forward to putting those virtual hugs aside and uh getting back to seeing people for sure yeah i think a lot of us are in fact yesterday the university of waterloo had a board of governors meeting and the deans were invited for the day and it was the first in-person meeting of any size i’d had in two years so there were 40 of us there and there was some distancing but the energy in the room was just beautiful and i came home it was the first time i felt like it was a normal day um in the last in the last two years so um any other any other thoughts on on this on this postcoded uh world no maybe not okay well i just like that you’re referring to post covet so i like the optimism please oh please yes but well our time is my time is almost up and so i just wanna you know i just wanna say really sincerely congratulations to all of you you make us so proud the work you do is so incredible thank you for for all of that and thank you for being with us tonight and inspiring those who are along and of course others will be watching um the video as well in time and so the inspiration will continue um you know stay in touch um thank you for for the involvement today and we’ll show there’ll be more involvement in the in the future and i i wish you all the best for the holiday season and um and for the post cobit world that we’re all going to enter together

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